Chinese Without Borders — 华人无国界

703 Comments so far

1. lemucuson April 17th, 2008 1:28 pm

   Hooray!

   More preparation should be well set in advance!

   Best wishes!

2. Justin Xin Wang April 17th, 2008 2:02 pm

   Everyone - As one of those who love justice and have signed up for this event, I would like to quote what Briton’s Admiral Horatio Nelson told his fleet during the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. “England expects that every man will do his duty”

   This event is certainly not about England. It’s even not about China. It’s about truth and fairness. Every man, let’s be prepared do our duty.

3. Shengnan April 17th, 2008 2:19 pm

   Do we want say more about Olympics?

4. Justin Xin Wang April 17th, 2008 2:27 pm

   Agreed. I think we should say more positive things - such as the Olympics and the Chinese people’s desire to host a good game. Staying in a more positive tone would help a lot.

   What do you guys think?

5. Calman Prussin April 17th, 2008 2:33 pm

   I was in Tibet for 4 weeks in 1986 and travelled extensively around the country. As a outside observer who came to Tibet without bias, my impression was that China had ruthlessly and systematically suppressed Tibetan culture.

   This does not excuse recent Tibetan violence against Han Chinese.

   I hope after the Olympics, you are able to contribute a similar amount of energy to improving China’s human rights. I also hope you have the evenhandedness to include my comments.

   Best wishes.

6. Xi Yang April 17th, 2008 3:08 pm

   I think we should have at least same number of posters for support of Beijing Olympics. Our messages should also be positive, constructive and putting things into perspective.

   Nevertheless you guys have done a very good job in shot time. Thanks for the hard work. I will be attending and standing with the posters.

7. Anony April 17th, 2008 3:20 pm

   To: Calman Prussin

   Thanks for your post. 1986 was 22 years ago and not too far from the Culture Revolution, when all kinds of traditional cultures in China were damaged. Who were the perpetrators? The answer might be shocking to you but it was the people themselves. Who smashed most of the monesteries in Tibet? Answer: the Tibetans themselves. I do not disagree at all that the Chinese govt has inexcusable responsibilities in the whole thing, but with regard to Tibet, it is unfair to blame it entirely on the govt.

   FYI, compared to Dalai’s theocratic govt, the Chinese central govt has done a whole more to improve and preserve the Tibetan culture. The Tibetan language is a mandatory course now in Tibet from 1st grade to 12th grade, while under Dalai’s ruling, there was no secular education and only a handful kids in the monasteries could learn how to read religious scripts. If that is the kind of “Tibetan culture” the central govt “ruthlessly and systematically suppressed,” then so be it.

   I’d like to remind you of the difference between culture/religion and illegal activities. No one has the free pass to hide behind their “culture” or “religion” to commit crimes. Not those “devout members of the Mormon church” in AZ who molested/raped underage girls, nor those “Buddhist monks” in Tibet who wanted to break up the nation under the disguise of religious activities.

   I visited Tibet two summers ago. Tibet looks like Tibet with its distinctive cultures. Yes, there are modern buildings and new stores on the streets of Lhasa that do not look like Tibetan monasteries. Tibetan people are entitled to enjoy modernization and better material conditions as well. They are not western visitors’ pets. They do not have to live in shabby huts without running water to “preserve” their distinctive culture. With the economic development, Tibetan people are in a BETTER position to do whatever they see fit with their culture.

   Lastly, we Chinese ARE working hard to improve our people’s lives, and that probably includes many of the things you call “human rights.” But if we do things a little differently than you, please don’t be shocked and label that a “human rights violation.” There is no “universal human rights.” You need view it within the context of a country’s social, economic, and cultural conditions. But seriously, no worries, it is our country and our people, and we can take care of our own business.

   Thanks for your concern.

8. Wen April 17th, 2008 3:24 pm

   I really like this poster which shouts our own voice. Just two comments: 1. I think we should include some more pictures about the incoming Olympic games in Beijing and our expectation to a peaceful and pure game instead of dirty politics and sabotage. 2. I don’t think it appropriate to let the name of website appear in the poster, which may mislead people that this is government-backgrounded.

   We much appreciate your hard work to prepare these materials and orgnize this event. Look forward to seeing you guys on Sat.

9. Wen April 17th, 2008 3:44 pm

   One more comment: we may want to include the content in the second paragraph of Anony’s response to Calman.

10. Joel April 17th, 2008 3:50 pm

    Since I am driving down from NY with few friends and have volunteered for duty, I need more information, such as a map of the area, where to park the car and the time to report for duty, so that we can arrange our time properly.

11. Yi April 17th, 2008 3:53 pm

    Do you have any flyers or brochures to distribute to people? We can include some useful information and links of videos, interviews, books etc. made by Westerners. Those will be great education materials.

    Somewhere we can make it clear that some westerners witnessed the riot and some of the Tibet rioter picture in the poster are actually taken by those witness. We want Americans know that the source we have are reliable. Don’t give them a feeling that this event might be Chinese government’s propaganda.

12. 晓思 April 17th, 2008 4:13 pm

    我觉得大家有必要挑选一下照片。我们的主要目标还是宣传中国积极的一面。有些照片，虽然证实了西方媒体报道不实，但也证明了近期在中国发生了一些发指的事情。个人认为在奥运临近期间，应以大局为重。不要在这个时候和那些媒体深究冲突中谁对谁错。冲突就是冲突，这个已经发生了，无论谁对谁错，对中国的形象都不好。俗话说，家丑不可外扬。我觉得大家还是以宣传奥运和近几年全国的发展角度来说比较妥当。而且有些照片有些太血腥，的确有助于渲染暴徒的残忍，不过外国人看过以后，或多或少会把这种血腥场面和中国整体形象联系起来。我觉得无论如何，这种场面也不会和中国政府提倡的和谐社会一致吧。而且奥运将近，外国人看了以后会觉得世界体育盛会竟然会在这样一个国家中举行，我想也不是大家的初衷吧。

13. Lina April 17th, 2008 4:48 pm

    Dear Calman Prussin,

    Thank you very much for your opinion and kind suggestion!

    I was in Tibet for 3 weeks in 1995. I would love to compare notes with you. More important: we should go back to Tibet again to see how it is now. Mainwhile I am reading “The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama” by Melvyn C. Goldstein, and try to find more unbiased facts.

    I admit that China does have many problems including human rights, and we should contribute lots of energy to improve it. Mainwhile, would you please help us improve your media, so it will have more creditability among Chinese people? It will really help on China’s human rights. What the western media did in the past month is to push people in China to trust their government’s propaganda machine again.

    I also very curious: how did you find out it was Tibetan violence against Han and Hui Chinese? Just for this along, you already have my respect.

    Best regards,

14. Michael Zhang April 17th, 2008 5:09 pm

    Dear Calman:

    There were more than 10 millions of Native Americans before the Whites came over and killed them. There are only about 1 million of Native Americans now, after the killing and suppression. What about the culture of Native Americans?

    We as Americans took over the land from Mexico (CA, TX, and AZ).
    Now when Mexicans come to their home, they have to apply for the approval. What do you care about their rights???

    All these above happened within last 2 to 3 hundred years.

    We Americans have killed many innocent Iraqis during the ongoing invasion, with lied excuses. How about the human rights against these innocent Iraqis??? Does our media cover any of these???

    Tibet has been part of China over many hundreds of years. Tibetian Chinese, among many other minority races, have been enjoying many special preferential treatments. How much do you know about these good things? With distorted western media, like CNN, Fox, BBC, I am in deep doubt how much truth you really know!

    Thank you for your opinion… Nothing personal.

15. xiaoshen li April 17th, 2008 5:20 pm

    中国早就计划要在八月北京OLYMPIC时候向世界展示大国风范,
    现在这个时间表提前了!!!

    当被人无中生有, 别有用心地指责为小偷时, 你会如何反映?
    A)怒发冲冠, 义愤填膺, 骂回去, 甚至揍他.
    若是这样, 不明真相的旁观者会有俩种可能:
    (1)若心中没有鬼, 为何如此反应剧烈?
    (2)哇! 这人太可怕了! 即使他相信你是清白无辜的, 他也不敢做你的朋友. 更不敢上你家作客.
    这样的处理看来是不对的. 另外, 若对方是成年人, 而你正在长身体, 力气没有对方大, 对方侮辱你, 本来就是为的找岔. 被对方引进这样的处境中, 实在没有理智.

    B)当众声明你的清白, 堂堂正正做人, 身正不怕影子歪. 对方一个巴掌拍不响,
    事情也不会闹到那里去. 日后, 你的清白, 公道一定会回来. 一场闹剧以无聊收场.

    当今, 各地华人纷纷抗议游行, 我们一定要有理智, 要文明, 不可以有暴力, 不可以胡来. 被对方牵着鼻子走, 钻进对方准备好了的圈套中. 法国总统几个月前访问中国时, 说: “一个国家要想成为SUPER POWER, 必须要有可以输出的价值观.”我们可以借力使力, 中国在毫无准备的情况下被藏独拉上世界注目的舞台上, 我们就在这个藏独搭起的舞台上向世界展示我们中国人宽容, 善良, 爱好和平的价值观. 骂不还口, 打不还手. 以德报厌. 别人砸了我们的火炬, 再从地上捡起来, 擦干眼泪, 往前跑. 让全世界看一看, 究竟谁是真正的非暴力运动. 诺贝尔和平奖得主带出来的就是这样的徒子徒孙. BEIJING OLYMPICS 重头戏不是金牌数目的多少, 而是道德的较量, 看谁在这道德竞赛中赢. 我们中国若是能赢得世界人民的心, 影响深远, 金牌总数排第几名真的无关要紧.

    但是, 现在华人个个怒发冲冠, 义愤填膺, 反西方的情绪高涨, 一种义和团式的愤怒. 有文章指出, 一场中国与西方新的冷战可能临到. 在东西方冷战结束十年后,
    有了反恐战争; 在反恐战争快十年时, 又开始了一场中国与西方的冷战. 若这成为事实, 中国就钻进了藏独背后西方反华, 仇华集团的准备好的圈套中了. 后果不堪设想. 反华, 仇华集团们睡觉都在笑.

    不要有过激言语, 更不可有不当的行为. INTERNET 上充满火药味十足的言语.DUKE UNIVERSITY 一位支持 FREE TIBET 的中国学生受到其他中国学生的恐吓, 全校纷纷谴责DUKE 中国学生会, 要求校方取消中国学生会. 中国学生以这种野蛮的方式来表达感情是不对的, 有百害而无一利, 也完全不符合文明古国, 礼仪之邦的做事法则.

    终之, 这个星期六在国会山的聚会, 我忠心希望人人文明, 理智. 我建议男士穿西装, 女士也穿盛装. 用我们美好的一面来表达我们的感情, 表达我们中国人的尊严. 而且, 从现在起, 我们中国人要注意我们每天的形象, 要对人友善, 而不是每天气嘟嘟的, 一付西方人借钱没还的样子. 这样做, 对中国好, 对我们自己也好.

    中国不可以, 也没有能力跟西方打一场冷战.

    衷心祝福我的祖国中国繁荣富强!

16. Lina April 17th, 2008 5:45 pm

    Strongly agree with xiaoshen li.

    I suggest everyone study this article before the rally:

    http://www.huaren.us/dispbbs.asp?boardid=331&Id=432869

17. Vickie Li April 17th, 2008 5:46 pm

    能不能给个具体direction, 比如坐地铁哪站下，怎么走过去。

18. Lina April 17th, 2008 5:59 pm

    Also please read this one

    http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/LosAngeles/31199388.html

19. KJ Liu April 17th, 2008 6:43 pm

    西方国家这次为什么会如次的团结？欧洲的德国、法国，一般是不会冒着这样的风险得罪中国这个经济大国的。伊拉克战争时德国和法国都和中国站在一边，不支持美国对伊动武。为伊拉克而得罪美国，不符合他们的国家利益啊。法国10年前为了不得罪中国，终止了对台军售，损失了几十亿的收入。而为什么今天会冒着这么大的风险公然与中国为敌？难到就是为了和自己根本不相干的西藏和奥运？
    而另一个值得让人思考的问题是，一向是西方老大的美国，为什么这一次这么低调？让英、法、德在前台唱主角？对于西藏，西方国家很清楚，再怎么闹，中国也不可能做出让步。对于奥运，他们也很清楚，就算西方国家没有一个领导人出席北京奥运会，中国也就是面子上过不去罢了，对中国有实质影响吗？没有。
    所以，西藏只是一个幌子，奥运也只是一个幌子。那么他们到底想从中国得到什么？
    西方国家正面临着10年来经济陷入衰退的危险，他们需要有一个有实力的国家为这次西方经济的衰退买单。不言而喻，他们不约而同的想到了中国。 做为一个普通老百姓，我对国际经济没有什么研究，但2008年一开始我还是隐约到中国经济面临的危险，现在也就想起了温总理说过的一句话：2008年也许是中国经济最困难的一年。现在想起正在进行的这场闹剧，真的有点让人毛骨耸然了。美国不是低调，是很冷静，他们早已经不露声色的出招了：
    1、美元贬值。因为美元贬值，人民币升值，中国16000亿美元的外汇储备已经人间蒸发了3000亿美元，而且还在继续蒸发中。更要命的是，由于人民币升值，中国出口产品成本增加，沉重的打击中国的出口，许多企业面临倒闭的危险。因为中国企业的倒闭，西方国家生产企业就可以开始生产复苏。
    2、通过高油价以拖跨中国经济。中国经济的高速发展需要大量的进品原油，而西方国家则不断的提高石油储备，造成高油价一直持续，以增加中国经济建设的成本。这就是美国为什么要打伊拉克、打伊朗的原因：控制石油就是控制了经济命脉。
    3、足涨中国金融泡沫。人民币升值，大量热钱自然要涌入中国，造成中国高成本、高币值的经济泡沫。或许这就是为什么政府就算是背着千夫所指都绝不救市的原因，就是为了打击国际投机资本在中国的恶意圈钱行为，而另一方面却不得不面对成千上万痛不欲生的股民的唾骂而有可能造成国内社会动荡的危险。现在看了，什么西藏事件、抵制奥运都是不足为道的事。
    所以，“西藏”和“奥运”只是西方国家绑架的两个“人质”，他们真正的目的不是西藏，也不是奥运，而是以此为要挟，要中国为他们的经济衰退买单。不买单：搞乱你，要死大家一起死。买单：坐下来谈，你答应我我就息事宁人！
    中国政府的冷静是对的，死死抓住经济建设这个中心不动摇才是关键。经济如果一跨，那就什么都跨了。 国民要冷静，要相互理解，不要给政府出难题。还是那句话：发展才是硬道理，压倒一切的是稳定。一个普通的中国人都能预料到，我相信政府能从容应对。我们要支持政府打赢这场表面上看起来是舆论战，而事实上是经济的战争
    我们需要更团结 希望大家奔走相告！

20. York Chen April 17th, 2008 7:08 pm

    Great Job!

21. Fay April 17th, 2008 7:16 pm

    Great work!!!

22. Wen April 17th, 2008 7:23 pm

    For those friends who do not live near DC, here is a link of DC metro: http://www.wmata.com/. You can plan your trip using the inquiry system on the homepage. It is always a nightmare to find a parking lot around that area.

23. Quin April 17th, 2008 7:45 pm

    Directions:

    Please take the red line of DC metro, and get off at Union Station. Come out of the Union Station, walk across the small park in front of the Station, then take Louisiana Ave towards D street NE. Then you will see the small green square towards the Capitol at the intersection of Luisiana Ave and D St. Take the small lanes on either side of the green square, walk up towards the Capitol, and you should be able to see the rally.

24. eye April 17th, 2008 8:30 pm

    以下我个人一些建议：
    1. 以迎奥运为主题，反藏独，反歧视为辅。
    2. 准备更多的有关Olympic的宣传材料。目前迎奥运材料很不足。
    4. 建议更多的传单，小册子，因为主要针对的是经过的人群，他们很可能不会细看poster，而传单，小册子可以带回家看，宣传对象可能有一个人变成一个家庭。
    3. 不要跟反对人士有言语，更不要肢体上的冲突。不要指望也不可能在短时间内说服这些人。我们的目标是周围不明真相的人群。
    4. 为了安全和宣传口径一致，原则上禁止私自携带发放材料。
    5. 但如果觉得自己准备的材料很不错，可以贴到网上来，大家看后如果合适，可以考虑带到会场，交给组委会，到时统一发放。

25. Hong Wang April 17th, 2008 8:59 pm

    Here is the metro map:
    http://www.wmata.com/metrorail/systemmap.cfm

    There are several metro stations close by, and the distance between the stations is not far, so no need to worry even if you missed one stop.

    If you take red metro line then chose either Judiciary Square Station or Union Station, if you take green metro line then chose either Federal Center SW Station or Capital South Station.

26. xiaoshen li April 17th, 2008 10:00 pm

    Ａ）先给一些ＰＡＲＫＩＮＧ的建议：
    我在DC附近生活, 我的看法是星期六大家若想开车来的话, 可以在PUBLIC GARAGE 停车. 有很多 PUBLIC GARAGE. 价钱好像是$10/天左右. 也有一些公司, 店铺因周末不用自己的PARKING　ＳＰＡＣＥ，　就在路边放个ＳＩＧＮ，　上面写＂ＰＡＲＫＩＮＧ＂．　这些转外快的，　价钱比较便宜．免费的路边ＳＴＲＥＡＴ　ＰＡＲＫＩＮＧ　很难找到，　ＡＬＭＯＳＴ IMPOSSIBLE.

    B)再说关于 MARCH 14TH 西藏动乱真象. JAMES MILES 是美国ECONOMICS记者, 他那几天就在现场. 他回到北京后, CNN 采访了他. 这个LINK是采访的TRANSCRIPT, 还有VEDIO. 他很没有偏见, 他所讲的与中国政府对事件的报道完全一致. 西方媒体完全IGNORE他的报道. DALAI 集团一口咬定, 事件发生时, 没有外国记者在西藏, 无人知道真相, 有血腥镇压. JAMES　ＭＩＬＥＳ　是一个很重要的人证．　我打印了几百份, 到火车站去发过，　让人看一看西方媒体睁眼说瞎话．

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/index.html#cnnSTCText

27. xiaoshen li April 17th, 2008 11:32 pm

    　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　！！！我非常担忧！！！

    现在，　全世界华人好象都行动起来了．　就说说美国这边吧，　看了几个中国学生抗议游行的报道，　写稿子的人都说场面乱轰轰，　旁观的美国学生说中国学生”DISGUSTING”．　与藏人对峙，　人家说一句，　中国学生说十句，　双方比麦可风的音量．我没有在现场，　但我完全可以想象中国学生个个怒发冲冠，　言语上充满火药味．

    中国政府，　国内的专家学者发表的言论都不对，　充满煽动性．　就象我上面ＰＯＳＴＩＮＧ讲的，　目前，　中国人中国学生，应当拿出高姿态来，　骂不还口，　打不还手，　以德报厌．　化危机为天赐良机，　向世界展示中国人宽广的心胸，　善良的品质．　国内现在抵制西方产品，　等着八月份，　对西方球队喝倒彩，　国外，　中国学生对西藏学生围追堵截，　言语上的冲突，　只差肢体冲突．　请问，　有谁八月份愿意花钱去北京看ＯＬＹＭＰＩＣＳ？我们中国到地要什么？诚实地讲，　用暴徒形容现在的国人心态，　并不太离谱．

    我们中国人，　一定要警惕美国在ＢＵＳＨ领导下犯的错误．　ＢＩＮ　ＬＡＲＤＥＥＮ砸毁两栋世贸大楼，　美国在外拥有全世界的同情和支持，　在内拥有高达９０％以上的人民支持，　结果过度反应，　大打处手，　陷入陷阱．　如果说，　成功炸毁世贸大楼让ＬＡＲＤＥＥＮ高兴，那也只是一些高兴而已．　美国现在的困境，　ＬＡＲＤＥＥＮ才会睡觉都在笑．　我们现在的情况跟美国９１１刚发生有点类似，　ＤＡＬＡＩ　ＬＡＭＡ背后的反华集团很高兴，　但也只是一些高兴而已．　若中国弄得四面楚歌，　那么反华集团才会睡觉都在笑．

    我们原本期望风风光光的火炬传递被人砸了场，　我看就算了，　不要再为此生气了．　但是，　我们要把我们高尚的品格展现在世人面前，　把中国是一个多民族和睦相处的大家庭告诉世人，　以此来抵挡以后更大的破坏．　

    八月份时，　西方运动员来了，　我们中国人要以德报厌，　热忱欢迎，　在竞技场上为他们热烈鼓掌加油，　以此来得到西方人的心．　（付注：　拍巴掌并不多花中国一分钱）．　相反，　若我们国人喝倒彩，　西方人树中母指，　电视镜头传出来，　北京ＯＬＹＭＰＩＣＳ将是一个低级，下流的聚会．　我们中国人自己侮辱自己．

28. Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte April 17th, 2008 11:43 pm

    Although primarily Western-educated, I have stayed in mainland China for several years, and I actually have contempt towards the majority of the nations I have been to, including the People’s Republic of China and the United States of America. I am neither pro-China or pro-Tibet. Come to think of it, I’m not pro-U.S. either.

    Without bias, here is what I know. There was a riot in Tibet, and Tibetans assaulted, sometimes killed, Sino-Asians of non-Tibetan ethnicity. Foreigners were not attacked. The riot was barely put down by damaged police forces, and China sent in an armed police force to Tibet. Monks were detained somewhere along the line, non-Tibetans were killed. China is pointing fingers at the Dalai Lama, and it’s a boiling kettle situation.

    While conspiracy theories are still up in the air, I will say that what I have said above are the only things I know for sure, and, until more proof and evidence comes out, the only things I will believe.

    Regardless of what had happened exactly in Tibet, I think the responses from both countries, federal, civilian, or otherwise, was somewhat uncalled for. The moment something like this happens, and conspiracy theories go flying, about how it was masterminded by the Dalai Lama, about how the Chinese police had exercised excessive force.

    People die, and both countries begin to conveniently point fingers at each other. It’s sickening.

    A lot of the fuel on the fire is due to speculation. Although this is not my first-hand account, some of my friends who have been to Tibet has testified a great amount of censorship and blackmail towards native Tibetans by the PRC to disclose as few information as possible towards foreign tourists. The same goes for the Great Firewall of China. I have stayed in China before, and I can testify that their legal system, as well as their control over their territory, is full of bureaucratic loopholes, frustrating, and designed to give the leaders full control over the nation. And it doesn’t help that, as soon as this kind of stuff happens, China demands that all Hong Kong and foreign journalists leave Tibet. I mean, if you want people to know the “truth”, this is NOT the way to do it.

    On the other hand, some of the reactions from the Western media is laughable. Yes, I recognize PRC police uniforms, and looking through a lot of pictures of Indian and Nepalese uniforms. Personally, while I believe some media bias does exist, I still attribute much of the information to stupidity: There’s a certain distance that the media can get away with this, and I personally think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that it’s a very hot issue, the Western world knows little about China, and they want to come to something that sounds decisive, even if they turn out to be wrong later.

    Yes, I recognize the fact that China has a lot of modern human rights problems, but China is not yet ready for complete democracy, not with the populace as it is right now. Yes, I recognize the fact that the United States had killed countless Native Americans, and that the United States, as well as seven other countries, invaded China in the past during the Opium Wars, but if we were to dwell on those events, as China is doing now, there will be no progress.

    I’m not very polished on Tibet’s history. I do not know whether Tibet’s history has grown better after 1959, or if it has grown worse. I do not know it’s condition before China gained control of it, and, quite frankly, I don’t intend to make any remarks on it.

    China needs to realize that, even IF the events WERE masterminded by the Dalai Lama, the fact that there were actually people who supported this conspiracy means that, somewhere, they’re doing something wrong. The PRC has not had a very good record in terms of foreign relations, regardless of whether it’s foreign politics or foreign media; they should improve on that.

    The United States needs to realize that they do NOT understand China, and they should stop pretending to. They need to realize that their current line of diplomacy with China isn’t working, that this is a country with completely different ideals that they do, and that they need to use the right methods to prevent another Cold War, this time with China instead of the Soviet Union.

    And both countries need to realize that they need to stop with their political bickering. It’s annoying, it’s frustrating, and it’s getting people killed. Although I am in support of the “politics has nothing to do with the Olympics” concept, the fact that these inexcusable riots, whether by conspiracy or by frustration, have happened means that there is a problem. And, personally, I would rather see China take the right measures to solve the problem, instead of watching other countries try to solve the problem, which, by that point, is already a wrong measure, no matter what they try to do.

    Regardless, I’m frustrated at watching Asian politics develop like this, and hoping there will be a peacefully, mutually-beneficial solution to the entire affair. I hope that the blood that has been spilled by the riots does not stain the red flag of the PRC when it is raised in the 2008 Beijing Olympics, because this is NOT what the games are about.

    Best wishes.

29. Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte April 17th, 2008 11:48 pm

    I saw this post a bit late, but reading through xiaoshen li’s post above my previous post, I have to say that that what he/she has written is probably the most realistic, honest post I’ve seen in this thread. Good job.

    …Yes, I can read Chinese.

30. maysailing April 18th, 2008 5:22 am

    Thank all of you for your comments and suggestions, either sides. We especially thank those friends like Xiaoshen, Li and Ysionris Cidri El, etc. who wrote with objective views and constructive manner. We deeply respect this type of comments.

    Practically, the purpose of our demonstration is to tell the truth that the media did not want to tell, so more and more American people will think in a way like Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte. Heated emontional feeling of a whole country is dangerous, that was how America was led into Iraqi war. We stand up for truth, not to protect either government. The fact the Western Media and some politicians united to lie has been much more disturbing to our mind than China’s slow improvement. At least the latter is trying to improve, to be better, but the former ones behavior clapsed our trust and our hope to the world. As common people, what we most want to see is that the world has justice.

    Again, as common people, we had no experience in organizing rally or march before, so please join us and help us in any possible ways. Together, we can organize a civilized rally as we wanted. Nonetheless, we are prepared to learn from any imperfectness that may occur as well.

    Thank you very much again!
    The 4/19 Rally Committee

31. feiling April 18th, 2008 7:19 am

    呵呵，连一点不同意见都无法容忍，以删帖来壮胆，这就是一群所谓追求媒体公
    正者的特色手段？中国政府里的官方教材塑造出来的人只配“享受”中国官方媒
    体的熏陶？

    中国境内钳制不同看法，甚至投入监牢，封锁网络，难道算是公正？这里自我标榜
    的所谓“common people”怎么没有种到中国使馆抗议一下呢？难道这些“common people”眼里只能替美国人监督媒体，没有良心为自己的同胞直言？

32. Keller April 18th, 2008 9:05 am

    Calman Prussin :

    Do not pretend to be a judge, mind your own business.

    I suggest you read Michael Zhang’s comment carefully and think about it.

    Another truth is, those so called “unbiased” media such as FOX, CNN etc do have the evenhandedness to include your comments but not many of ours.

    btw, you need to update your knowledge about China, urgently.

33. Keller April 18th, 2008 9:09 am

    反思党们一边歇着去。中国是有很多问题，但不是现在，何况哪个国家没有问题？不能因为你反党，就反对共产党支持的一切。西藏是中国的核心利益，决对不容外来势力干涉，这与政府无关，与党派无关。

    楼上那个feiling 要去中国大使馆抗议，没人拦着你。那里天天都有FLG的职业抗议者轮班，也不怕多你一个。

34. Lina April 18th, 2008 10:42 am

    Dear Keller,

    I think you are a very passionate person, and indeed love China.

    What I don’t like is the tone in your message. Is this the way that you are going to talk to Americans tomorrow? IT IS NOT GOING TO WORK! You should really learn some propaganda skill from Dalai Lama.

    I believe Calman Prussin is not brainwashed nor have anything against China. He is just giving us his opinion. I think we should appreciate that.

    Best regards,

35. Jess April 18th, 2008 10:59 am

    To Lina: no one accused Calman Prussin of being brainwashed. There is nothing wrong with Keller’s tone either.

    The freedom of speech (unfortunately) includes the freedom of spouting bullsh*t. Even worse, some people use their freedom of speech to harm/insult others, or sabotage others’ efforts, and provoke hatred and misunderstandings among innocent people.

    So people should also have the freedom of avoiding or condemning such vicious speeches. They can do so by covering their ears, staying away from the malicious type, or by giving counter arguments.

    Keller voiced his views. We should respect his right to do so. This is not the rally, and how he says it here does not translate into what he will do at the rally.

36. Lina April 18th, 2008 11:18 am

    To Jess,

    Let’s hope everything goes well tomorrow. And hope what happened in Duke University will not happen again.

    Best Regards!

37. Lina April 18th, 2008 11:20 am

    This is a ZT: 关于西藏问题，与一位德国朋友的谈话 花 155 淡淡微风

    其实已经是前个星期刚闹那阵子的事儿，本来过去了也就过去了，只是看到河里一些朋友与老外说西藏话题的时候，激动有余理智不足，总是憋足了气把自个儿气的够呛还没说出个所以然来，未免长他人志气灭自己威风，想想还是把那时候的一些对话写出来，希望对大家最近或者以后在与老外讨论类似问题时有点儿借鉴。
    太细节的对话已经记不清了，我的外语本事也绝对到不了义正词严大义凛然还不走调的水平，不过大致上的意思应该差不了多少。跟老外辩论，语言绝对是个大问题，我们想在这上面胜过人家，估计难度比较大，所以，还是要靠技巧加证据。另外还有，就是你的对手必须是懂道理的，要不然说什么也白搭，咱们中国的糊涂虫和愤青比哪里都不少，不信的话您试着去说服一个试试？
    与我对话的这位，大学成绩总评是1.1，毕业几年以后还被学习作为优秀学生请回去做报告，人又帅，似乎还被女教授暗恋过，人才是一等一的。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    好了，废话少说，接入正题。

    一些相关的闲话就不提了，想提也记不住，只说我记得的问题。
    开始的时候，我自然要让他上套：在我的概念里，德国人是理性、理智、客观的代表，你同意吗？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    他当然同意。
    嗯，我也同意。我接触的大部分德国人都非常的友善、有教养、讲道理、懂得尊重人的。
    他当然同意——不同意就简单了。
    问答开始。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    他说到，在他的概念里，西藏是中国在一九四九年占领的，似乎是课本里就这么教的——可见这个问题有多严重，人家从小就受这灌输，想改变基本上不可能。拿什么西藏有史以来就是中国领土那一套根本没用，领土从来都是不停变化的，哪有从来都是那回事儿。
    我没办法，只好问他：你去过西藏吗？
    没有。
    嗯，我去过。你认识西藏人吗？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    不认识。
    嗯，我认识一些，包括藏族人和生活在那里的穆斯林和汉族人。你读过几本关于西藏历史或者宗教的书？
    没有。
    嗯，我读过一些。你认真花过多少时间去研究西藏问题？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    没有。
    只是看电视或者报纸杂志报道吧？
    对。
    那么，你觉得咱们俩谁更应该明白真相？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    话说到这里，他已经基本上被我绕进来了。后面怎么说，他都被动了——跟老外辩论，一定要掌握战略主动权，绝不能跟着他的思路或者话题走。
    他当然不会这么容易就束手就擒，还是要反扑的。
    他说：那些报道都是有根据的。
    是吗？你觉得他们一定经过细心的调查，认真的核实是吗？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    当然，那是职业道德。
    我笑了——感谢cnn，感谢bbc，感谢那些德国媒体，感谢那些给我提供弹药的其他媒体，当然，最要感谢的还是anti-cnn。
    我问：如果他们撒谎了怎么办？
    他露出疑惑与不肯定的表情，估计是知道我这里有陷阱，但是又不知道怎么应对。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    于是，我打开anti_cnn网页，一个一个的证据，他的脸色变了，不过还是一副不服气的样子：那是因为你们不许记者进入西藏。你们没有新闻自由。
    我又笑了：没有第一手的资料，就可以说谎了吗？
    他终于无言以对。
    我又问他：当然了，这是我们的问题，我们的新闻一向不够自由，我们也希望更加自由一些。但是，不自由并不意味着说谎，也不意味着就要被抹黑。再说了，那是中国的领土，当然我们说了算。比如你到我家里，当然要经过我的允许，记者想采访我，当然要我同意啊！是不是如果我不同意，他们就可以去随便说我的坏话？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416

    他当然不会这么容易认输：你们破坏了西藏的文化。
    呵呵这样的问题当然难不住我：你觉得我穿西装怎么样？
    不错啊。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    可是我们中国人以前都是穿长袍的，你应该见过照片吧？
    对。
    那好了，我也觉得你们西方的西装比我们的长袍好看而且方便，你觉得这算不算破坏了中国文化啊？
    不算吧——这里我和他说了不少，我记不清了。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    所以啊，西藏的经济发展了，原来的穷人有钱了，生活方式与习惯自然会改变，我们汉族和别的民族都一样。这是钱的问题，社会发展问题，工业化的问题，不是民族或者文化问题。难道你希望他们永远穷下去，永远不洗澡，并且永远穿那些不方便的衣服吗？重点是，他们现在穿的是西装，和阿迪达斯的运动服，那不是我们中国人的，是你们西方人的！你觉得这是好，还是不好？
    他自然没办法反驳。当然他也可以继续反击，但是我的回答早等着呢：他们庙里的服饰还是会延续下去，节日也还是会穿他们自己的礼服，这个不会变的。他们只是生活方式变的现代了等等。

    他还有话说：他们没有了信教的自由。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    谁告诉你的？
    报道。
    那你觉得我自由吗？我受到限制了吗？
    他狐疑的看着我，不明白我的陷阱在哪里。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    Ok，我知道你不明白，你知道我信佛吧？
    知道。
    那你一定不知道我有几个藏传佛教的老师。
    他自然只有听着。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    我这几个老师，有在北京认识的，有在其他城市认识的，也有在青海、西藏认识的，我可以随意的跟他们学习，他们也可以随便到中国的任何地方去传教，他们哪里不自由了？连到北京上海广州传教都自由，怎么会在西藏没有信教的自由啊？
    他晕了。
    而且，我是汉族人，我都可以随便信藏传佛教，藏族人怎么可能不自由信仰呢？
    然后，我给他看了一些照片，青海、西藏、四川、北京各地的喇嘛的照片，都是生活照，有看着我笑的，有跟我一起坐车的，也有寺庙里集体吃饭的照片。然后我问他：你觉得他们象不自由吗？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    他自然无语。但是他还是有杀手锏。

    为什么你们要把西方人和记者赶出来啊？
    安全。这是最重要的，当然，我们中国人还是不太懂得跟你们的新闻界打交道，所以没有很清楚的说明白。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    然后我举例，告诉他我去西藏之前和到西藏之后朋友们的告诫，告诫我千万不能跟藏族人冲突，不然很危险，还告诉他一次打的时因为钱的问题，司机的手伸向了腰间的刀。又告诉他一次我亲眼看到一个藏族小孩儿敲诈汉族旅游者。
    然后我看着他：现在你知道那里有多危险了吧？
    他很狐疑的看我，估计是半信半疑——这就够了。你不能指望他们一天就改变一生的观念。
    我给他证据，看照片，一张是我们去哲蚌寺路上，上山的时候，一个老外骑自行车的照片，一张是川藏线上，一对骑自行车的老外夫妻吵架的照片。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    然后我问他：你看那时候，他们有什么限制吗？
    他自然无言以对。

    当然还讨论了不少问题，但是凭着资料、知识、照片与现身说法，他基本上都被我说服的差不多。我不敢说他一定认为我正确，估计也很难改变固有的认识，但是至少，他开始明白自己以前的知识是有问题的，他一直相信的媒体也是有问题的，我看到了他开始反思和更新知识的迹象，这就够了。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    让他们知道，我们中国人比他们更理性，更知道事情的真相，他们自然无话可说了。

    当然，这样的辩论，其实没什么意义，最重要的，还是中国人自己站起来，让他们只能批评却无可奈何——美国那么强大，还不是到处都有人批评，可是批评了又怎么样，谁敢得罪美国？——而我们很多人心目中的概念，希望大家都接受你不批评你是不可能的。
    当然，中国人也还是有很多地方有毛病让别人挑，我们也用不着动那么多气，有理有据有节，才有用，还要在人格上水平上压倒他们，让他们觉得自己水平不够资料不够时，他们就硬气不起来了。让他们在道义上觉得自己占不到上风了，服软了，也就够了。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    其他的，就要靠国家民族的真正崛起来解决了。

    http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416

    又想起几段儿来，补在这里。

    他说，你们还是侵犯的西藏，赶走了达赖喇嘛。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    据你所说，中国人是一九四九年进入西藏的？
    对。
    那么你知道达赖喇嘛是哪年离开西藏的吗？
    不知道。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    我知道，是一九五九年，你知道为什么他十年后才离开西藏吗？你知道那年发生了什么事吗？——抱歉，我也记不清了，不过估计他也不如我知道。但是大家最好还是查一下，免得被人抓住痛脚。
    不知道。
    你知道达赖喇嘛不是一个人去的印度，而是带了十万人去的吗？
    不知道。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    你认为如果中国真的想拦住他，在西藏那个地方，十万人走的了吗？
    。。。。。。
    你知道这十万人都是什么人吗？
    不知道。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    都是奴隶主。那时候西藏一共两百万人，其余的人，都是中国人进藏得到了利益的，而走了的，都是利益受到侵害的。如果真的象达赖说的那样，那些人都是受到利益侵害的，他们为什么不跟着达赖走？中国并没有栏着他们。照你们的思路，他们都走了才好，中国就可以殖民了吧？
    ——然后我就对他进行了普及教育，告诉他那时候西藏的奴隶制，是很落后的，奴隶主可以随便杀奴隶，还可以把人的骨头拿来做容器等等，他当然不怎么信，我就告诉他可以到网上去搜，达赖喇嘛还把人皮的东西送各国政要。当然，他还是半信半疑，但这样已经够了，让他知道西藏的过去和现在都没有他以为的那么美好，就够了。

    可是达赖是个爱好和平的人。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    是吗？那为什么有这么多暴力？如果他真的爱好和平，他为什么不制止这些暴力行为？
    人那么多，他制止不了。
    如果他对那些人都说了不算，他自己说自己和平，有什么用？他这边说和平，那边人照样暴力，那不是撒谎吗？他拿什么来做到他说的那些话？如果以后那些人还是不听怎么办？
    http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    达赖只是为了信仰。
    是吗？你认为达赖现在是什么身份？
    宗教领袖。
    有人否认过吗？中国人不承认过吗？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    没有。
    那就对了，那你现在觉得他在要求什么？
    。。。。。。
    他本来就是宗教领袖，没有人否认。他现在继续要求，当然是宗教以外的东西。他想做国王。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    。。。。。。
    你知道欧洲历史上最黑暗的时期是中世纪吧？
    对。
    你们欧洲那时候的情况，你当然比我清楚，比我有发言权。http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    是。
    中世纪最可怕的原因，就是政教合一。欧洲就是突破了政教合一，才有了现在的先进与美好。你们比中国先进的地方之一，也是意识与政权分离——姑且这么说。
    嗯。
    达赖要的，就是政教合一。要不然，他已经是宗教领袖了，还要什么领土呢？http://www.cchere.net/thread/1535416
    ——当然，当时的对话没这么条理清晰，他的反应也没这么简单，具体我已经没办法记起，但是脉络还是这样。基本上，你只说到达赖要政权，欧洲人还无所谓，因为那不是他们的领土，他不痛不痒的。但你一旦指出“中世纪”和“政教合一”，欧洲人就没办法反驳了。这也算是政治正确吧。
    ——如果他们敢耍无赖说达赖在自己领土上可以自由选择，那就简单了，不过，一个受过高等教育的人，一般没那么愚蠢：）

    关于西藏历史上与中国的渊源，我也没办法用外语说清楚中国怎么就自古以来就拥有了西藏的主权，所以没怎么敢硬碰硬。不过，旁边的朋友说，从秦朝开始西藏就属于中国——这是不是有点瞎掰，反正我当时没敢接茬儿——我是告诉他，从元朝开始，西藏就是中国领土了，唐朝还算是友好邻邦。清朝的时候，北京还建立了一座“雍和宫”，现在还是老外到北京旅游必去的地方，英语名字就叫“lama tample”。

38. Lina April 18th, 2008 11:23 am

    [转帖]爱国青年与藏族大妈巴黎街头大激辩全过程 发贴心情 Post By：2008-4-15 16:47:00

    和藏族大妈激辩，巴黎
    作者：特立笃行的猪

    　　2008年4月7日
    　　
    　　这一天，奥运圣火从北京来到巴黎
    　　这一天，火炬被熄灭五次
    　　
    　　这一天，是我来法三年最有意义的一天
    　　因为
    　　这一天，是我第一次举起国旗义愤填膺的捍卫祖国的尊严
    　　这一天，我在巴黎市政厅前与一个藏族妇女和一群法国人辩论，表达了我们的声音
    　　
    　　好几个摄像机相机记录下了这一切，但是我知道，这些影像几乎永远也不可能出现在自由
    　　公正的法国媒体上，所以我想写下来（过几天会写法文），告诉大家，希望能给大家一点启发，在和外国人辩论交流时能冷静沉着，有的放矢，在最短的时间里给他们洗脑
    　　
    　　香榭丽舍大街，一片混乱，我连火炬手都沒看见
    　　
    　　我追着火炬来到了巴黎市政厅广场
    　　
    　　在巴黎市政厅前，一片混乱，群情激愤，有一台摄像机来到我身边，我主动凑过去，問他愿意听我说几句话吗，他很乐意，于是我们的对话开始了，我先问明白了他的身份，是独立制片人，（是阿，主流媒体都在ZD那里，谁理我们阿），去过中国（好，去过中国的一定会比较有好感，客观实在）
    　　
    　　经验一，开场独白：赞美对方，表明身份，阐明立场，拉近距离，缓和气氛
    　　
    　　我于是开始了：
    　　你好，我喜欢法语，热爱法国文化，所以我才。。。。。。。。（让他们开始YY，我真TMD虚伪）
    　　来法国学习，曾在在XX工程师学院，现在ＸＹＺ（名校的精英，法国的明星企业，他们开始感兴趣）
    　　我和所有其他普通中国人一样，热爱言论自由，民主和人权（记者同志，笑什么笑，严肃点不行吗，你这采访着呢）
    　　我們今天来是和你们对话，希望你们也能倾听我们的声音（说吧说吧，他们心里都流蜜了）
    　　
    　　好的开始绝对是成功的一半，接下来我说什么他都很听得进去
    　　
    　　所以一开始一定要冷静，如果一开始就激愤着控诉，^&*%^$^%$, 他们马上就把我定义为brain-washed communist，接下来说什么都是 propaganda 了
    　　
    　　接下来很顺利
    　　
    　　然后
    　　
    　　突然
    　　
    　　一个藏族大妈，拿着面zd大旗出现在我镜头前，开始嚷，我一下就晕了，还没有反应过来，记者就幸灾乐祸火上浇油了，“你不是说要对话吗？你现在愿意和她对话吗？”
    　　
    　　我。。。。。。
    　　
    　　我。。，3分钟大脑一片空白
    　　
    　　缓过神来，环视一周，N个摄像机不知道什么时候对准了我们，周围一群法国人，藏族大妈周围几个ZD怒目相对，几个拿着国旗的同胞充满期待的坚定的注视着我
    　　
    　　我低下头，看了看手里寒风中的小红旗，左手擦了吧额头的冷汗，静静的说：好
    　　
    　　她真是有备而来，劈头盖脸的pourquoi（为什么），整整十分钟
    　　
    　　我。。。。。。。。。。。。
    　　
    　　我。。。。，3分钟大脑又是一片空白
    　　
    　　冷静下来，分析下对手，大妈，法语一般，文化不高，缺少逻辑，情绪失控
    　　
    　　我于是从经济文化。。。。。。。。
    　　
    　　大妈确实水平有限，毫无逻辑，风度全无，胡搅蛮缠
    　　
    　　比如，西藏本来很有钱，中国原来很穷，现在中国比以前繁荣，是因为从西藏掠夺了财富
    　　
    　　靠，太cnn吧，很好很搞笑，我只是微笑着说：这个我就不多说了，大家自己判断吧
    　　
    　　好像大家都在笑，有的会心，有的苦涩
    　　
    　　我不写我们对话的具体内容了，毫无营养，浪费时间。
    　　
    　　经验二: 沉着冷静，有理有据。
    　　
    　　大家要明白，藏族可以以情感人，博得同情，但是我们只能以理服人，因为我们已经被贴上了“残忍的侵略者”的标签，我们只要表露稍微的一点爱国热情，他们就会认为我們被洗脑了，共产主义，所以一定要 忍耐，克制，冷静。
    　　
    　　旁边的人很多很杂，用各种尖锐挑衅充满陷阱的问题质问我分散我的注意力。我无数次被激怒，但是为了集中火力搞定大妈，我忍。
    　　
    　　大妈的语言真的挑衅，我忍，但是当她把我的国旗一把扯过摔在地下的时候，我差点爆发了，差点一把扯过她的ZD旗了，但是看着摄像机，我明白这时ZD在期待什么，我代表的不是我一个人，我自己图一时之快，只会让ZD和法国人有更多的证据，我一时的不冷静，明天法国报纸就能欢天喜地把尼泊尔的警察换下了。
    　　
    　　我感觉身体发烫，长叹了口气，发现嗓子都烧干了，静静的说:“我们不是在对话沟通吗？我们不该互相攻击阿。”（后来想想，那种场景我还能说出这种话，真tmd的伟大）
    　　
    　　这出一完，旁观的人开始明显的倾向我了。一个法国人说：中国人民和政府不是一个概念。。我说西藏的文盲率从90% 降到50%时，藏族大妈开始歇斯底里的攻击我说的是谎言的。一个法国中年妇女主动站出来说，去过中国，我的是事实。
    　　
    　　总之，藏族大妈的pourquoi （为什么）慢慢的用完了，于是拿出了杀手锏了，声泪俱下的描述她被她的汉语老师强奸了，我又呆了，我怎么说明她沒被强奸呢？我说，如果是真的，那真的很遗憾，值得同情。我看了周围一圈，大家沒什么特别的反应，估计看了她那么多毫无逻辑的控诉，再看这个，也不可信了。
    　　
    　　看着大家偏向我了，ZD急了，一个拿国旗的大概是温州的中年妇女被他们放倒了，我差点冲过去了，还好一个女留学生很快叫来了警察。
    　　
    　　接下来，就是我就彻底压倒了，不知道什么时候藏族大妈和ZD就偷偷走了。
    　　
    　　总之，收获不少，她确实水平有限，毫无逻辑，风度全无，胡搅蛮缠，还动手扯旗，我着正装，沉着冷静，彬彬有礼，有理有据。
    　　
    　　接下来就是和记者及民众的一些问答，很有建设性，到最后基本上我的观点他们基本上全部接受了。
    　　
    　　几个经验
    　　
    　　经验三：能屈能伸，以退为进
    　　
    　　实在不行，可以改变策略，我说也很讨厌政府很不满，大家都很不满，因为它不象法国政府那样完美，民主，人权（说着说着，他们就不好意思了，坦白说其实法国也很多问题，也要改进）接着说，所以我們也会努力改进，向法国靠拢（他们又开始意淫。）再接着说，但是你们用这种方式，会适得其反，因为所有国家都是平等的（平等是法国人最喜欢的词之一）而你们的方式让人无法接受，让人想起盛气凌人的殖民主义（殖民主义是法国人最讨厌的词之一）
    　　
    　　经验四：如有必要和CCP划清界限
    　　
    　　我说党，政府，国家，大众，文化是不同的概念
    　　你们攻击的是CCP，受到伤害的是14亿普通民众的感情与尊严
    　　
    　　大妈曾抓着毛泽东说了半天，把他的名字念的极其标准重复N次，绝对比毛本人发音要好多了， 我烦不胜烦，大义灭亲：“我是他老湘，我 不 支 持 他 !”
    　　
    　　你。。。。。。。。。。。。
    　　
    　　你。。。。，3分钟大妈大脑一片空白
    　　
    　　（我趁机yy，若道中华国国亡，除非湖南人尽死，有我们这股霸蛮在，哪里也tmd甭想独立！！！）
    　　
    　　我赶快转向镜头，静静的说：“但是他己经死了。”
    　　然后迅速转移话题，抢过发言权。
    　　
    　　和CCP，CCTV , communism划清界限有利于保持自己的可信度和亲和力
    　　
    　　经验五：尽量少碰达赖喇嘛及宗教，强调中国的宗教宽容
    　　
    　　我试着说达赖喇嘛的头衔都是元朝蒙古人封的，权利与地位是明朝得以巩固，清朝加以确认，还没有来的及说到政教合一，农奴制，就被众人疯狂打断质问
    　　
    　　西方对达赖喇嘛的神化真是无以复加的，都几乎超过了梵蒂冈的教皇了，他们对梵蒂冈，对教会的组织机构的还有尚有不满，多加批评，但是对达赖喇嘛，对政教合一，农奴制中世纪般的西藏是毫不知情的，那时的西藏几经被美化成香格里拉，宗教圣地，paradise 了
    　　
    　　而达赖喇嘛，也确实，（至少言论上）很博爱，很和平主义，很温和，又托6.4的福拿了诺贝尔和平奖，迷人的微笑，外交大师，国际传媒专家，精神领袖，宗教star，比超级女生还super
    　　
    　　他们因为不了解西藏而疯狂迷恋西藏崇拜达赖喇嘛
    　　他们因为不了解中国而疯狂仇恨中国
    　　hypocrisy
    　　
    　　不要轻易试图去碰这个问题，这个hard core 的问题一定要对方有了很深的了解才能去探讨，一上来就碰这个G点是不行的，马上会激起他们对无神论者的无边无际仇恨
    　　
    　　如果对方提到宗教的问题，最好的还击是说中国的宗教宽容（tolerance），重点强调中国有两千万穆斯林，他们从公元七世纪就开始生活了，我一说这个，所有人都很shocked，如果还有人坚持什么，那就在再在伤口上撒把盐，说说十字军东征，天主教徒和清教徒仇杀，种族灭绝犹太人的美好历史，还有杀手锏――xx （不说大家都明白）
    　　
    　　经验六：介绍中国的民族和民族政策
    　　
    　　说明中国不是一个民族国家，而是一个多民族国家，不是由Tibetans 和 Chinese组成，而是有漢、滿、蒙、回、藏 朝鲜等民族组成，有53种口语，28种书面文字，藏族人口第九，壮族多达1千6百万，几乎够组成3个法国，
    　　
    　　强调中国特有的民族政策（positive discrimination）
    　　
    　　还有人和我坚持，直接在他们伤口上撒把盐，问他的车在巴黎郊区骚乱被烧沒
    　　
    　　经验七：强调西藏的进步
    　　
    　　废话嘛
    　　但是但你看到他们一张张O 型嘴才会明白，这不会废话，这是breaking news
    　　
    　　经验八：告诉他们的信息来源biased （被洗脑了）
    　　
    　　强调他们充分信赖大多数情况下可以信赖的本国媒体，而不知不觉成为媒体误导的牺牲品，而我们会多种语言，阅读多种媒体，在不同国家生活过，能进行比较鉴别
    　　
    　　我一说，我不相信CCTV，他们就傻眼了
    　　我二说，我会三种语言，去过的N多国家，他们就。。。。
    　　我再说，那你们呢？
    　　他们开始愿意接受我的洗脑了
    　　
    　　经验九：以情感人 敢做弱者 会装可怜 说出自己真实感人的故事
    　　
    　　人的本性就是同情弱者，藏族大妈的咄咄逼人，和我的gentleman，给人的感觉是她在压迫我(oppression)，我没有发言的权利，结果给我加分不少
    　　
    　　然后，我再来个诉苦大会：藏族大妈阿，其实不光您阿，我们都是受害者（victim）阿，妈妈被下放5年，每月工资3欧元，爸爸7年，每月5欧元，我出生时，爸爸只有高中毕业，丢下我和妈妈一个人去上大学，妈妈一个人好几年又工作又带我。。。。
    　　
    　　我们那里的名胜古迹也被砸完了，爷爷的邮票古籍全被抄家了，奶奶被逼跳楼精神出问题了。。。。
    　　
    　　然后，pourquoi pourquoi pourquoi ……..
    　　所有人围着我这个全家被迫害还在这里defend的SB开始“十万个为什么“
    　　
    　　我舒了一口气，终于把你们套牢了
    　　
    　　轮到CCTV上了：
    　　
    　　历史是血腥的，破坏是全面的，受难是全民的，全国56个民族都很郁闷的，藏族并没有享受到特殊待遇的，教训是很惨重的
    　　
    　　惩罚guilty的人是不容易的，够两万万人住的监狱那个时候太穷是盖不起的
    　　
    　　庙宇古迹重建了，国家百业俱兴了，抄我们家的混小子把爷爷最漂亮的二女儿娶回家了，爸爸大学毕业了，钱越赚越多的，房子越来越大了，我都法国研究生毕业了，都开始给上海设计地铁了，都上您这儿来辩论了！！！
    　　
    　　日子是越过越好的，前途是一片光明的，虽然道路是屈折的，但是奥运是一定成功的，哪怕困难是多多的，尤其你们这些挡路的，一下午把圣火玩灭5次的！！！！！！
    　　
    　　
    　　这个关子卖的够大，但是现身说法也很成功，非常有说服了，现场所有人听完了都在沉思
    　　
    　　丫的，她说被强奸，我可是全家被迫害，靠，谁敢比我惨
    　　
    　　其实，我想我们中间至少99%的人都比父母一代要幸福，我想每个人把自己的故事写出来，做一个专辑或者论坛什么的，真实的生活胜于一切口号和雄辩
    　　
    　　
    　　经验十：反对干涉主义（Interventionism）, 给出愿景（Vision）
    　　
    　　我告诉他们法国人对东方文化和中国国情，对中国和西藏，都毫无了解，外国干涉只会越搅越混，徒增仇恨，费力不讨好，就象美国在伊拉克一样， 然后我追问了一句，法国想派兵来吗？ 记者小伙吓坏了，连说我们不会的 （好吧，拿你们意淫藏独，手淫人权把）
    　　
    　　告诉他们，法国的主人是法国人，法國的主人不是中国人，中国的主人不是法国人，中国的主人是中国人，这个逻辑简单明了，他們都明白了，法国人的智慧是毋庸置疑的
    　　
    　　告诉他们，随着经济发展，中产阶级壮大，大众诉求愈来愈多，我们也会从法国带回民主人权自由的普世价值，让中国融入国际社会 （大家可以改成英国，美国，德国。。。 让他们疯狂意淫）
    　　
    　　
    　　
    　　
    　　至此，几乎所有人都没有了敌意，放弃了“Free Tibet”的诉求，好奇的問我这那，开始和我善意的交流
    　　
    　　
    　　
    　　几点感想：
    　　
    　　1. 没必要反ZD
    　　
    　　除非八国联军再入北京把鸟巢、水立方烧了，ZD才有点看头
    　　
    　　那我们在法国的工程师也会用土木工程力学分析，用最节省的方式把艾菲尔铁塔放倒
    　　
    　　ZD真的沒基础，反对ZD反而是对它最好的广告，应该把诉求放得高一些
    　　
    　　奥运精神，民族间的宽容与和睦相处，中国融入世界，反对媒体不公正，反对 anti-chinese 。。。
    　　
    　　2. 西藏的政策与现状一定有一些很严重的问题的
    　　
    　　既然发生这样的暴力的事件，一定有深层次的原因的，或是经济利益分配不均，或是宗教精神需求没有得到满足，或是。。。，但是无论如何千万不要仇视他们，以暴制暴只能止一时之暴，治本不治根，中华民族一定要智慧与宽容去解决民族问题才能称其为中华民族，虽然无神论者去帮助一个中世纪般的政教合一的地域融入世俗的现代社会是一个艰巨的挑战，我们一定有智慧与宽容去完成这个impossible mission, 而不是象美国人一样出师未捷身先死，陷入泥潭
    　　
    　　中国一定成为，和睦，多元，宽容，友爱，博大的多民族国家！！
    　　
    　　3. 大多数法国民众是善意的
    　　
    　　无论中国，西方，藏族，大多数民众是善意的，那个藏族大妈，流落异乡也是值得同情的。法国示威游行的大多数，也是简单善良，充满正义感，为了美好的理想与诉求走上街头，但是又不幸的因为无知与傲慢被媒体和一些别有用心的政客误导，所以我们只要告诉他们有一样的dream，憧憬一样的world，也渴望自由民主人权，他们很快就我们站在一起了
    　　然后，再但是。。。，我们就多了些理解我们的朋友
    　　
    　　在香榭丽舍大街，一对打藏旗的法国夫妇，开始有些不爽他们，他们的藏旗实在比我的小国旗大太多了，后来干脆和他们攀谈，其实他们真的是值得尊敬的人，为那么遥远的地方的他们认为要捍卫的东西就走上街头了，但是他们了解的常识真的很有限，还很很很同情关切的問我幸福嘛，我爸爸妈妈幸福嘛，几句话下来，他们就calm了，他们和绝大多数法国人一样对中国的认识停留在70，80 年代，对法国国际地位的认识停留在1789年。他们可怜又可笑，但也很可爱很善良，是我們可以对话交流的对象。
    　　
    　　法國的歇斯底里 ＝ 民众的善良＋法国的革命热情＋对法国国际地位没落的失落＋对中国崛起的敌视＋政客的。。。＋媒体的。。。＋法国日益加速不可避免的衰退＋。。。。。
    　　
    　　4. 能被法国人骂是实力与强大的象征
    　　
    　　绝不是阿Q
    　　法国人就是同情弱者，鄙视仇视强大的权利，美国，俄罗斯，中国, 法国政府都是他们仇视的对象
    　　今天能被法国人骂是对我们三十年来进步的肯定
    　　哪年在西藏有xx来着？ 当年他们可是屁都不放
    　　
    　　贫弱（你该干什么干什么，懒得管你）――》
    　　崛起中（你干什么我都骂你，不管不行）――》
    　　强大 （你干什么我都“想”骂你，但也管不了了）
    　　
    　　The good indian is the dead indian
    　　The good china is the week china
    　　
    　　5. 游行示威是法国人的全民娱乐项目，相当于中国的卡拉ok
    　　
    　　游行示威，肆意表达能给法国人不尽的高潮
    　　那天上街的好多人就是为了享受这种挑战警察寻找刺激的快感
    　　法国平均两天就有一次游行示威，所以大家感情上不要受伤害，根他们生气太不值了
    　　
    　　6. 中国和西方可以不是敌人，但也很难成为知心知底的朋友
    　　
    　　文化差异还是很明显的，亨廷顿的文明的冲突很有参考价值的。
    　　
    　　日本民主自由，军事政治上被阉割的毫无威胁，乖乖的做经济动物，但是和西方也只是君子之交。
    　　
    　　真正能和中国成为知心知底的朋友的国家，可能还是儒家文化圈的国家，日本韩国越南，加上东南亚吧
    　　
    　　7. 谁是最可爱的人？ 中国女孩！！！
    　　
    　　那天好多女孩了！！！
    　　看到一个女孩从怀里拿出一面藏旗，告诉我们那是她抢来的
    　　听到一个身材娇小的女孩气喘吁吁的描述她是如何用高跟鞋去捍卫国旗
    　　我顿时觉得她们是那样的美好，勇敢坚强智慧可爱
    　　她们是那样美好可爱，个个都像金晶一样，她们是我们的骄傲
    　　I really wanted to kiss everyone of them at that moment,!
    　　I really wanna say:
    　　I love you, the Chinese girls
    　　Je vous aime, les chinoises.
    　　（汉语是世界上最含蓄委婉优雅的语言。。。。。。L
    　　
    　　
    　　8．媒体
    　　
    　　我们真的需要一家华人的半岛电视台 AL JAZEERA，发出我们华人视角的声音！！！
    　　
    　　都是媒体惹的祸
    　　
    　　我们都知道有经济霸权，军事霸权，现在知道了话语权的霸权也是这樣的可怕
    　　
    　　环视全球十多亿华人，连一家很有公信力(credible)的华文媒体都没有，更别说华人视角的英文媒体了
    　　
    　　CCP历史上以攻心战著称，但现在的CCTV, 大楼盖得很牛X，但现在国内都连小学生都蒙不住，国际频道更因为有政府背景根本就没人看
    　　
    　　政府的外交象幼稚园的小BB一样“笨笨可爱”
    　　西方的媒体自由公正
    　　尼泊尔的警察名扬四海
    　　ZD资金充裕，训练有素，装备精良，征战全球
    　　海外的我们却只能赤手空拳的上阵，在背景画面里若隐若现
    　　
    　　我们最多只能在youtube 上放几个视频，疯狂点击，在各大媒体的comment里苦苦刷屏，然后被他们鼠标一点全部删除！！！
    　　
    　　
    　　我们真的需要一家华人的半岛电视台 AL JAZEERA，发出我们视角的声音！！！
    　　
    　　9. 2008 年！ 具有历史意义的一年！！
    　　
    　　奥运就是一个政治工具！！！
    　　
    　　1964的东京奥运会，标志着战后日本的复兴
    　　1988的汉城奥运会，标志着战后韩国的崛起
    　　2008的北京奥运会，标志着贫弱两个世纪中国的重生
    　　
    　　2008，美国的经济终于开始衰退
    　　2008，欧洲的歇斯底里无济于事
    　　
    　　虽然奥运的火炬没有带来友谊，但是前所未有的让全世界的中国人华人空前团结了起来。
    　　
    　　海外的我们被迫走上街头，心潮澎湃：
    　　中华民族到了最关键的时刻，我们万众一心，冒着。。。。。
    　　筑成我们新的长城！！！
    　　
    　　Binbin @ Paris
    　　XJTU SUPELEC ALSTOM
    　　14/04/2008

39. Jess April 18th, 2008 11:52 am

    To: Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte

    Thanks for your thoughtful post. You sound like a political science major.

    I’d like to point out a few inaccuracies in your post. First, you used “two countries” when talking about the Chineset govt and the Dalai Lama group. This greatly reduces your credibility, if nothing else, as Tibet is an Autonomous Region of the sovereign China. I’d give you the benefit of the doubt and call it an oversight or typo.

    Second, you mentioned that the western media knows little about China and that was a major reason for their “errors.” Well, if they have all the raw tapes of violent rioters attacking people, and still decide not to show those images and still call the riot a “peaceful protest,” would that change your view?

    Let’s face it, they are not as ignorant as you want them to be. They are powerful news agencies with all the man power they need to understand China. They know what happened. Selective reporting is not Xinhua’s privilege. Media slant things the way they want because they have the power to do it. In China’s case, reporting good news won’t get them extra rating; “the worse the better” is the guiding principle. I say this because I follow the news, I read the papers, and I am often in awe of how skillfully and artfully the western media slant things. Xinhua has so much to learn from the “independent journalists” from the “free world.”

    Lastly, I am not sure whether there is a country in the world that can escape your contempt after you get to know the country and understand its govt. I guess we can agree on the assumption that we are yet to find the perfect form of govt for mankind.

    All I care about is that people live well. There are upsides and downsides with all kinds of govts, as you probably can tell yourself. The fact that Americans have more freedom of speech doesn’t necessarily mean they all live better than the Chinese. I don’t need to point to the ugly sides of the American way of organizing the govt and running the country.

    I only want to urge you to look at things from different perspectives. People’s lives have many aspects, and sometimes there are trade-offs to be made. Govt censorship is not ideal, but if I can sacrifice some of my freedom of speech in change for the chance to move above the subsistence line, I’ll probably do it.

    The Chinese govt has a very difficult job, and it has done pretty well in the past few decades. The country is on the right track, and the trend towards more progress, both economically and politically, is encouraging.

    I appreciate your attention as well as your “frustrations,” but let’s have faith in Chinese people’s intelligence and be a little patient with the Chinese govt.

    After all, no one else in the world knows how to run China better than the Chinese themselves. But I’m pretty sure many other people/govts are experts in how to destroy, weaken, and mess up developing countries, as history has taught us. Beware.

40. Jess April 18th, 2008 12:06 pm

    To Lina:

    I don’t think what happened in Duke was necessarily wrong.

    Don’t let the western media be the one who sets your standards. Chinese students have the right to show their emotions. What Grace Wang did was more than enough to trigger that emotion.

    The American media can call that outpour of emotion “nationalistic craziness,” but I bet if it were between a 9.11-supporter and a bunch of New Yorkers, they would praise the same emotion as “patriotic bravery.”

    I don’t support the threats laid upon her families or herself. But let’s be realistic, Chinese netizens say that kind of stuff about pretty everything that upsets them. Most of them are probably teenagers. It’s bad PR for “Chinese public opinion,” but the same thing exists in every country, and western media simply found the perfect chance to use it against China this time.

41. Lina April 18th, 2008 12:21 pm

    To Jess,

    What is the purpose of our demonstration?
    1. To show our emotion?
    Then, just go head do and say whatever in your mind. I am a Chinese myself. I feel exactly the same way you feel.

    2. To convince people?
    Then we really need to have some strategies.

42. Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte April 18th, 2008 3:40 pm

    To Jess:

    Typo on my part, my mistake. Although, then, again, I’m neutral in the entire affair, so I can truly care less about whether or not Tibet is part of China, as long as there is peace. It’s like Chechnya and Russia, really; there are pro-independence and pro-unification forces on both sides. I’d rather take the middle ground and just say “it’s whatever, as long as a war doesn’t break out”. But, yeah, I admit I probably offended someone when I typoed “nation” for Tibet.

    No, I’m not a political science major, although I’m probably not too far away.

    Now, first off, I do not deny the possibility that there is someone in CNN who is on the payroll of someone who may want to utilize selective reporting and media bias. There’s always the possibility, but I’m not a conspiracy theorist, and I don’t want to get into that. What I’m trying to say is that nowadays, Western media is less about “reporting the news” that it is “providing entertainment”. It’s a big business out there, and, if you need examples, just look at the 2008 Presidential Elections; that’s the one piece of news that networks regularly report on a play-by-play basis outside Major League Baseball, National Basketball, and the Super Bowl. Oh, and Hollywood sex scandals. We hate them, but the paparazzi sure are hard at work.

    I personally don’t know if the media was “persuaded” to be biased, or if there’s a conspiracy behind this. To be quite frank, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was. However, I still stand by my belief that most Westerners don’t understand China. The impression of China that most Westerners (that I’ve met) hold of China is something that’s still stuck in the Cultural Revolution, if not the Qing Dynasty. This impression has given most Westerners a rather incorrect view of China. Yes, China is far from perfect. Yes, China still has human rights problems. Yes, it’s average welfare level is very low for a G5 country (one of the five nations that emerged victorious in World War II) considered to be a superpower. On the other hand, I lived in China during the time when China was rapidly changing from a broken country to a nation with a massive market. Think “Cultural Revolution” all you want, Uncle Sam; you’ve got more investments in the Chinese market than you’ve got anywhere else.

    Again, most Westerners don’t understand China, and they rarely ever had. There were only really three times the Western world really ever had major contact with China. The first was when Genghis Khan took over with the Yuan Dynasty and started pillaging his way through Europe, and THAT doesn’t really count because Khan wasn’t actually Chinese, but Mongolian. The second time was when the eight armies decided to invade China, in hopes of opening a “great market”. The irony of it is that, at the time, China was so poor it was ridiculous, and most of the other nations still believed that China’s market was as prosperous as it was during the Tang or the Yuan Dynasties; they most certainly didn’t expect China to be dirt poor. And the Qing Dynasty wasn’t REALLY Chinese either, at least not Han Chinese; it was a Manchu empire. The third time was during the Cold War, when China turned Communist, and with Washington totally focused on something called the “Soviet Union”, few in Washington cared about China. Personally, the Americans that came the closest to understanding China at the time were Korean War veterans, and all they probably knew was that the Chinese army infantry scared the hell out of them.

    This is the Western world’s fourth time, this time in more diplomatic, peaceful tones. I’m hoping they don’t screw this one up.

    I’m personally pro-democracy, and I’m somewhat irked against Beijing’s media censorship and state-controlled media (a lot of them truly lead to negative propaganda, which sometimes cause more problems than most). But the problem is that the Chinese people are not yet ready for it. Now, before someone jumps my throat, don’t get me wrong; I’ve many Chinese friends (I think I should specify to “mainland Chinese” friends, as this is what we’re dealing with), and they are some of the most intelligent people I’ve ever met. But these people make up a very small fraction of China’s actual population, which still largely consists of workers, farmers, and the proletariat, many of whom have little contact with the outside world, and are also very nationalistic. It doesn’t help that Chinese textbooks are extremely biased, with government-enforced opinions scattered all over historical textbooks. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the Chinese population are still recovering from the aftereffects of the Cultural Revolution, which can’t really be said to be Beijing’s fault; they’re operating on very limited resources, and the efforts that can be funded are extremely disproportionate to China’s massive population. Giving China free speech and free media, at the moment, would do the country more harm than good; think what would happen if you have the netizens in China free media and free speech. The recent Grace Wang event probably speaks volumes.

    I still believe in a compromise though. Again, as I said, most Westerners don’t understand China, but I don’t necessarily think China understands the Western world either. Both of them are really just pouring fuel on the fire. The Western media’s, and the Western world’s in general, interpretation of China is stuck in the Cold War, and China is trying to build up a nationalistic population through government propaganda via Xinhua. This kind of propaganda is not going to breed good diplomats with the Western world, and diplomacy is exactly what’s needed between East and West right now. I don’t mind media censorship, but when you’re unilaterally enforcing opinions onto others, that’s called brainwashing. Call the Western media “brainwashing” if you like; at least no one is forcing the population to believe the media. In fact, most people take what the American media with a bit of salt; most Americans have learned through the course of the Iraqi War and the War on Terror that many news networks, such as Fox, are unreliable.

    The Times reported that students of Tibetan ancestry at schools in Beijing are required to submit written papers specifying their feelings for the Dalai Lama, providing details of their parents, giving details of their own identity card and a written statement guaranteeing not to take part in political activities. I can understand a written statement guaranteeing not to engage in violent protests or riots, and giving details about their identity card isn’t much of a big deal when most governments already have records anyways. What really bugs me is that they’re specifically asking the students for their political views and details of their parents, which are, at best, a private affair. This is not going to ease the resentment that’s building between Beijing and the Tibetans.

    However, I do think that Beijing has done an extraordinary job rebuilding a country that experienced the Opium Wars, the Japanese invasion, World War II, the Communist Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, the Cold War, and the Korean War…in the last one hundred and fifty years alone. Investors are flocking to China for the massive market for ridiculous prices, and that alone speaks volumes.

    And if you think China is all about being undemocratic, think again. For one thing, China exercises a certain respect about ethnic cultures and diversities. I was on a domestic Chinese flight a few years ago one time, and a passenger, Tibetan, was permitted to bring a traditional knife onto the plane, although temporarily given to a flight attendant for safety concerns until the flight landed. The knife itself was not really dangerous; it wasn’t very sharp, and most kitchen knives are probably stronger than it. But it’s part of Tibetan culture, and, had this occurred anywhere else, we’d probably see air marshals with guns in the plane very fast. It takes a lot of respect for another culture to allow this to happen, and that it happened in China really made an impression on me. Say what you will about China; I say it’s improving drastically.

    Here’s hoping everything works out. Cheers.

43. Quin April 18th, 2008 7:18 pm

    Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte,

    man, don’t i wish all westerners can reason things through like you do?

    you got an email address or something?

44. Kevin April 18th, 2008 9:24 pm

    To Jess and Lina,

    Jess, you might be right in your argument. But I do agree with Lina. Stragegy is very critical in convincing Americans. It will be counterproductive to offend your audiences. The key is to remain cool and rational, may be sometime even give concessions in order to win(以退为进). In such kind of event, emotion can really achieve little, if anything at all.

45. Jess April 18th, 2008 9:50 pm

    Hey,

    Let me make this clear. I absolutely support a strategic presentation tomorrow at the rally. But this forum is not the rally. Keller can say whatever he wants with or without emotion here. I do, however, think we all should try to be calmer in order to be more persuasive tomorrow. So we really don’t have any dispute regarding how to carry ourselves tomorrow.

46. Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte April 19th, 2008 9:36 pm

    Quin: I thank you for your compliment, but I’d also like to note that the mentality of “don’t I wish all Westerners can reason things through like you” is kind of the reason why East and West are still having poor diplomatic channels. Diplomacy instantly becomes less likely to succeed when one side immediately assume that the other side is incapable of understanding. That’s the mistake both East and West are making, and, if anything, it’s not helping.

    …Besides, when it comes to politics, I think we all agree that all governments, regardless of if they’re the United States or the People’s Republic, are generally very good liars.

47. Quin April 20th, 2008 9:00 pm

    Ysionris Cidri El Gavotte:

    I certainly agree with you on the last point: governments lie, or say, politicians lie.

    But with my last comment, I didn’t mean to assume the “other side” lacks the ability to understand. I’ve talked to so many Americans about this “Tibet/human rights in China” issue, and what I found was not the inability to understand, but the tendency to rush to a conclusion without knowing the necessary facts. Sometimes it’s due to lack of information, and sometimes it’s due to one’s laziness, closed-minded-ness, and arrogance.

    Reasoning through things is no easy breeze, especially when it comes to “remote” and complicated stuff like this “Free Tibet” thing. Many people choose not to do the leg work before they start enjoying the pleasure of accusing others.

    Hence my excitement when I saw your comments.

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